Talk:Jewish fascism

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Merge proposal

I propose merging Jewish fascism into Revisionist Maximalism. The majority of this article is simply summarizing other articles, particularly this one but also Otzma Yehudit.A. Rosenberg (talk) 14:48, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support merge and redirect, this article is an unnecessary fork. Otzma Yehudit is linked to the topic only by reference in op-eds, which does not justify a dedicated article. Marokwitz (talk) 11:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Jewish fascism is a wider conceptual category than that particular political movement and deserves its own article 49.183.0.118 (talk) 09:17, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: The topic here is a broad political framework, and the target being suggested is a specific political movement. The relationship between the two pages is parent and child, and the page clearly states that the target is just an early example of the broader subject. The application of the term to the Kach movement is another piece of currently absent discourse. The page is presently just a start-class encyclopedia entry and needs expanding. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:11, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Support per Marokwitz to allow for a more nuanced discussion in the new article, but amenable to a different solution if one is found FortunateSons (talk) 14:08, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support merge and redirect also pero Marokwitz and the point that this is an unnecessary fork. Hogo-2020 (talk) 06:47, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Jewish fascism is a long-running movement with many iterations and facets, those include revisionist maximalism but other streams exist and folding them under maximalism obfuscates the differences. Majdal.cc (talk) 18:37, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose This is a relevant and growing topic, given its history and the current political climate where some increasingly disturbing views are being aired openly by politicians in Israel Mrfuzzydwagginz (talk) 17:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Most of these comments you are referring to would regardless be better classified as Kahanist than "Jewish Fascism," as fascism has many distinguishing aspects besides nationalism or bigotry. So I would consider this point in particular moot. A. Rosenberg (talk) 14:48, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. This article is poorly written right now but it can be rewritten to one that properly examines both radical early Zionists, Kahanists, and potentially Jewish supporters of white nationalism in the US. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 23:04, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose This topic has a long history and the term "Jewish Fascism" needs its own article. 2A01:5EC0:7027:93E8:15F1:4CF3:F15D:7DF7 (talk) 18:26, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The renaming proposal is clear to point. Outside of light use by the Revisionist Maximalists, the term "Jewish fascism" finds no basis outside of external accusation, which I do not believe achieves the threshold for an independent article supporting the term (most especially when historical fascists proudly used the term and that is not the case here). Mistamystery (talk) 18:34, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is extremely incoherent. First, this is a merger proposal, not a renaming one. Secondly, subjects are not named based on what they call themselves. That is not, and will never be, a naming criterion (let alone a criterion for whether a subject qualifies as having standalone notability). Thirdly, it's rather by the by, but fascism is a term derived from Latin by way of Italian politics in the 1910s. But non-Italian groups did not call themselves this; they called themselves "national socialists" and the like, so I'm not sure where this idea that fascists call themselves "fascists" even comes from frankly. Although Smotrich has incidentally noted his indifference to being called a fascist. [1] Iskandar323 (talk) 19:08, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a renaming proposal, but certainly much of this article could be moved to the other. A. Rosenberg (talk) 20:52, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

page name

Blocked sock. SilverLocust 💬 08:18, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Would "Fascist Jewish nationalism" be a better page name?

It is somewhat more precise? and that helps decide which topics above should be included? (e.g. white supremacists who are Jewish don't count)

It is also somewhat less provocative?

I think in both cases the improvement is because it more clearly refers to a specific ideology or set of related ideologies, whereas the current title can be read as "Jewish people who are fascists"?

MWQs (talk) 13:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Iskandar323, it looks like you started the page with the current title? Do you think my suggestion would be an improvement? would you have any objections to a change? MWQs (talk) 05:02, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@MWQs: I'm afraid I do have objections. The current title is a term that actually finds currency in extant books and works of scholarship. The proposed term is both tautologous (fascism is inherently understood to serve nationalistic functions) and finds no usage in extant books or scholarship. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:13, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Iskandar323, Can you include some quotes that use the term? You can add them to existing references with the "quote =" field. If it's in hard copy books we should try to find samples on Google Books or full copies on Web Archive so it is verifiable. MWQs (talk) 06:43, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Iskandar323, Which movements are included in that label in sources? Maybe the modern stuff I've added belongs back on far-right politics in Israel? But you brought up Smotrich yourself? And Smotrich offended Jordan by using the same old map as some of the pre-48 movements. The modern extremists look like a continuation of related movements in the British Mandate era? Are they? MWQs (talk) 07:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nationalism: I agree "nationalism" is inherently part of fascism, but it's informative to include, because fascist (insult) is used so broadly that a lot of people associate it with socialism or globalisation or other things which are almost the opposite of the narrow definition of fascism that this page is about. MWQs (talk) 07:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Fascist Jewish nationalism" is the most precise description the topic. I've not got any examples of all three words in that order, but "fascism" and "Jewish nationalism" are both used to describe modern extenders like Smotrich and Ben Gvir, and sometimes Netenyahu. MWQs (talk) 07:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Likud's inclusion

Including Likud in this article as the Likud being a form of Israeli Fascism is biased. It is true that by international standards (in my opinion) Likud is much farther to the right than center-right as it is considered to be in Israel. But including the Likud as a form of the fascist party is debatable, and seems to be in the case of this article as for the arguments of its inclusion to be more of an attempt to push a certain ideological frame than a statement made based on ideological analysis. Overall although I see personally the Likud as a far-right group I don't think its drive is similar to fascism, even for international standards. LeptQuacker (talk) 17:11, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Likud is far-right but his coalitiants are also fascist not only far-right to be precise. 2A01:113F:203:3D00:898C:47CA:19:3727 (talk) 20:33, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]